No, leave it as it is. Maybe we need to manage our time better to realize the speed limit is only 25. It is important to keep our kids safe, between the high school, library and park district this street is very busy for children in our community.

We could also build more sidewalks and stop signs or stop lights. If the speed limit does get changed, if there are more stop lights kids will be able to cross safely, that is if parents reinforce the importance of when to cross at a light. I am a mom of a 9 year old and the first thing he learned when he started walking down the block with me (he was about 3 or 4 then) was to stop at every corner and look both ways. I just think with more sidewalks and stop signs or stop lights the kids would be safer.

The speed limit north of 159th street should be left at 25 due to the number of pedestrian crossings. There is basicly nothing going South to 163rd street and the limit should be 35. If I remember correctly the county has been asked to do this in the past.

I can kind of see both sides of the issue. But I think I would be in favor of increasing the speed at least 5 MPH more because the route is so slow to take. If pedestrians and cyclists are truly a concern, then I would say build sidewalks, build a bike path. Get them off the road.

This is not a major road and it is only 12 blocks long (approx. 1 1/2 miles). Increasing the speed limit will not make a significant difference in the time it takes you to drive on Central.

My mother and father both had tried to get this speed limit decreased long before Chris' unfortunate accident. My father even ran for alderman to try and get this accomplished. They had also, pushed for a stop light at the corner of Albert and Central Avenue. As stated earlier, it is unfortunate that someone had to die for the changes to be made. That being said, I am 100% against raising the speed limit on Central Avenue. With the speed posted at 25, cars typically run about 35 MPH. If it was raised to 35, then traffic would approach 50 MPH routinely. There is way too much children traffic along Central and crossing Central Avenue. If the speed were increased to 35, would you get from 151st to 159th about 15 seconds sooner? That is not worth the risk.

This is a good time to think about the roadways and the speed limits on these streets. The posted speeds are there for your and your family's safety. Please obey the posted speed limits throughout the City. Having an unfortunate accident can happen to any of us, and it would totally change your life. Don't risk being involved in an accident. Drive safely and be aware of the children on every street. You don't need to be there that quickly...think how you would like people to drive on YOUR street.

I've lived in Oak Forest for over 30 years and always wished there were sidewalks running the length of Central Ave. There has always been a need for sidewalks with all of the important public buildings along Central. Will we ever get sidewalks on both sides of the street? Even one side with a continuous sidewalk would be a vast improvement.

Really enjoying this open discussion, readers. Keep it goin'!

Signed,
Your Patch Editor,
Lauren Traut

What Chuck says is true, the County had beautiful plans for Central. It would have been 4 lanes with sewers, curbs, sidewalks, park benches, and 1890's type street lighting. All of this would have been done entirely at the County's expense and not cost the City one dime! But as Chuck said, a few folks on Central wih their driveways exiting on Central, fought it saying it would become a speedway. The County finally abandoned the plan, and most of the residents who fought it are now gone. The County finally widened it to the 3 lanes there now, but without the amenities. The original plans were still floating around City Hall when I was there.

Patrick M. Gordon

I really doubt the County has any interest in re-visiting this plan. They don't have any money to even put in sidewalks which they promised us a few years ago. Just chalk this up to opportunities lost.

Don't forget who we are dealing with. The county is broke, and will probably stay broke for years to come. I don't think they will come back and undo the improvements they made, even though they are not what we wanred. The resident made her dicision, now we are stiuck with it.

A project like that, with the lighting, sidewalks, benches, etc. would really give Oak Forest a face-lift along Central. If there is ever an opportunity to get the sidewalks, maybe Oak Forest could do some fund-raising or have an event or ask for donations from residents to beautify this area. Some of the main entries to our city have a ragged look to them. That doesn't give a good impression to visitors or potential residents.
Linda Ferguson

Hi Chuck,

You and I have talked about this issue in the past and I think we agreed to disagree on it. Even though my backyard butts up to Central, I am in favor of raising the limit to 35mph. Working for an engineering company in the transportation industry, you see a lot of instances where speed limits are set well below the design criteria for simply no reason other than the public misconception of speed, which I believe is in this case. Numerous studies have shown that it’s a myth to believe that reducing the speed limit will actually cause people to drive slower and that raising a limit will cause people to drive faster. A quick search of the internet found one study done for the FHWA back in 1992 and is here, http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html. The other is a PDF from El Paso, TX and is here, http://www.ci.el-paso.tx.us/engineering/_documents/Speed%20Limit%20brochure.pdf.

What I would like to see is Central be 35mph from 163rd to 147th and sign the area from the post office to north of 151st as a school zone with a 25mph speed limit in this area. As a school zone you could strongly enforce that area as well as ticket for cell phone use in a school zone. I've also seen a couple of areas, in other towns, where they have speed indicators attached to the school zone signs to tell people how fast they are driving. No tickets are issued, but any sort of actual visual proof of how fast you are driving usually causes people to slow down.

When Central was last widened, I called the county design engineer and asked if the limit would be raised. He said the design speed was 45mph, but that they would only raise it if the City asked. Most speed limits are based on what 85% of the drivers do, which in this case 85% of 45mph is 38mph. I’m guessing that if you removed the speed limit signs and just clocked drivers for a week, the average speed would be about 35mph, so pretty close to 38mph. Considering that 25mph is 55% of 45mph, it should be considered too low. Lets also remember that 151st is 35mph, between Central & Oak Park, and there are two schools in that stretch and the area along Central where Arbor Park is has a 35mph limit.

Everyone talks about the sidewalks on Central, so why hasn’t this been done? I though funding was secured a few years ago for this? We spent money for the ‘METRA’ sidewalks on the ‘L’ streets, why were those priority over Central? Who’s really walking to the train station over there? I know, I know different money pots, but the east side of Central has what, 20 feet of right of way? A nice 12-foot multi use path would fit very well there. This would keep the bikers and the kids off the road, plus provide continuous access between the public buildings.

My original comment a couple of weeks back was part sarcasm and part honesty in which I stated we should raise the limit but not up to 35 mph. I suggested raising it to 34 mph because I believe that odd number would cause people to pay attention to their speed. After reading these comments, it seems clear to me that a number of residents (me included) would love to see Central Avenue improved with side walks and lighting. If this could ever happen, I would truly support increasing the speed limit. Mike Ziak, you make a good point regarding school zones with speed limit signs that have LED speed indicators built into them. To some extent, those signs are similar to my suggested 34 mph signs. Unfortunately, the reality is that improvements such as these can't be done without a new revenue source considering our city is already facing unprecedented revenue shortages. Personally, I look at improvements such as these as investments not only in my home value, but as investments in our community which ultimately help all of our home values. Chuck, maybe improving Central Avenue's appearance, accessibility, and finance should be put to referendum?

Mr. Conway, I included your comment because I believed it showed the possibility that residents would be open to change, while still looking out for the good of the community. I appreciate the conversation this has sparked within Patch. It's what we're here for.

Your Editor,
Lauren Traut

Chuck, if you would, please post your findings after looking into the sidewalk implementation agreement from two years ago. I would not be surprised if it is stuck in some sort of limbo. Once we have the answer to that, we will know what our next step should be in order to get that work completed. Thanks.

Chuck, it's funny that you mention exactly how long it takes to travel this stretch of road at various speeds because just today as I was sitting at Central and Albert waiting for the light to change, that is precisely the thought I was having. I concluded that raising the speed limit wouldn't be an issue if people simply left their homes 2 minutes earlier (actually less as you proved). Raising the speed limit truly isn't an issue for me - I'm comfortable where it's at but wouldn't mind it changed either (which I don't see happening). More than anything, I would love to see this road's image improved just as I wanted the gravel parking area along 151st Street improved near the high school (which you were able to accomplish, thank you very much). Do I see it happening? Unfortunately, NO. My reference to a referendum was aimed at improving the image more than anything, but believe me, I clearly see how much difficulty the city is having at maintaining what roads they are already responsible for. As for the story about how we as a city missed out, I know the story very well and can only say to my fellow residents - Get involved with your local governments (city, park district, school district). Don't let a vocal minority make decisions that will affect you and your family!

It doesn't matter what the speed limit is. The child who gets injured will be the one who didn't cross in the crosswalk and/or didn't look both ways before crossing. The person who strikes the child will be the one who is driving fast and not paying attention anyway. The low speed limit is a hinderance to the people who are safe and obey the law. I feel it doesn't prevent the people who speed anyway from driving over 25. I think we can all see this everyday. Keep in mind that in 1975 the multiple stoplights were not here, lighting was much worse, and the crosswalk law was not instituted. With stoplights forcing motorists to stop at the intersections, we no longer need a 25 limit. It should be raised another 5 and slow down traffic inside school zones during child presence. It would also be nice to have sidewalks since there are so many pedestrians around.

I have an easy question for everyone, why are we so worried about the speed limit when the children would just be safer WALKING ON A SIDEWALK? I mean seriously, everywhere you go there are speed limit signs and unfortunately a lot of people speed everywhere. I also live just off of Central. No matter whether or not the speed limit changes, there will always be people out there who think they are above the law. I know that is a sad thought but it is true. When it comes to children walking along Central, in my opinion there are 2 ways to keep our kids safer. The first is sidewalks, which I feel is just obvious. The second is more parents taking the time to stress and teach our kids about safety. If our kids break the rules on this issue, consequences must be reinforced. Take them to a childrens ward where kids were hit by a car and scare the living crap out of them so they actually stop and look both ways before crossing and to cross at a stop light or stop sign. I would really like to know what steps our city officials are going to take to get these sidewalks? I don't drive and when I have to walk down Central it is rough on me. When I have to walk in the mud and muck just so that I am further away from the cars just makes it that much more difficult. I have bad arthritis to top it off. So I am asking the city officials to please please please do what you can to get sidewalks put in. It will make it easier for me and safer for the kids.

I am talking about someone whose home is located on this "main road" The children do not play " in" the road but they do play in the front yard just like any other children who play in front of their houses which are located in the residential area with a 20mph speed limit. Since the speed limit on Central is just supposed to be 5mph more than on the sidestreets, why should the homeowners who live on Central not have the same option to have their children play in front or talk to their friends on the sidewalk just like everyone else? Especially to accomodate people who for some unknown reason have to get down Central a minute or two faster. Victoria and 155th Street are "main roads" thru Oak Forest. How would it be to increase the speed limit on those streets to 35mph? It would be unsafe, just as it would to increase it on Central. I don't believe my question was answered. How would you like the speed limit on the street directly in front of your house( the one you pull in/out of the driveway everyday or pick up your paper at the end of the driveway, or have your children play basketball in the driveway, or have guests get out of their cars with young children, etc) increased to 35mph with the knowledge that many cars will then travel up to 50mph or more?

The 25 mph speed limit on Central is pointless. My car idles faster than that. I don't have to use the accelerator. I can coast at 30 and then be ticketed. So am I supposed to ride my brakes?

My biggest beef is Oak Forest's *OBSESSION* with stop signs in the most asinine locations. I've never seen so many 3-way stop sign intersections in a city. James/Edward Drives, 152/Lavergne, 153/Lavergne, 154/Lavergne, 149/Lavergne, 149/Jones Court, 152/Laramie, Lockwood/Long Aves. It's ENDLESS. It seems that a resident will complain that three cars traveled down their street within a 72-hour period and minutes later, stop signs are erected up and down the street.

My FAVORITE spot for the most utterly ridiculous stop sign goes back over 30 years on Park Ave by the former El Vista pool. It was literally in the middle of a residential block. NO cross street. The "logic" behind it was for pedestrians crossing the street to go to the pool. Uh-huh. So in January and February, is it really vital?

If ANYONE knows of a yield sign in Oak Forest -- an actual triangular-shaped yield sign -- take a picture of it! It would be extremely rare and perhaps valuable.

That would be yield, sorry for the misspelling. I must have been over zealous in helping you with your quest.

Commenters,

Please keep it civil.

Your Patch Editor,
Lauren Traut

If my memory serves me correctly, since that time no new signs have been installed, and some have been removed. Beter review your facts.

Richard Hertz/Harry Cox, we voted on not spending $10,000 on an engineering firm to tell us when and where signs would/could go. We have not placed an additional sign since then as Alderman Simon stated, and have actually decresed the signage in OF. If you would like real answers to real questions, please give any of the aldermen or me a call. We are happy to answer questions to real people.

Lauren, Turn this conversation off. Rude & crude comments have no value.

Hey folks,

This is a pretty interesting discussion about an issue that a lot of people in town feel strongly about. A lot of good points were raised. And an elected official got into the mix and answered questions and sustained the debate — disagreeing amicably with folks who obviously hold a contrary point of view.

This is exactly what we need and want on Patch. And there are far too few venues in the country where passionate, locally focused civic discourse can unfold. So let's not abuse the privilege here. This is the void Patch is trying to fill.

Sure, tempers can flare when you debate an issue close to your heart, but when you're sitting at your computer or pecking away at your iPad, you can also ease back on the throttle, reflect for a few minutes, and decide not call each other names. Think of the comments area as your mom's living room — would you act like that in her house?

And for those who keep adopting juvenile takes on the male anatomy as screen names, we're running out of patience with you. When we were 12, this was funny — to the other 12 year olds. Patch isn't "Porky's II," so please clean it up or we're going to boot you.

All the best,
Dennis Robaugh
Regional Editor, Chicago

Well put Dennis, thanks!
I am looking forward to finding out about the funding for the Central Ave. sidewalks, but am also curious to see if they would put some in on 151st as well, who's responsibility is that road?

I also live on Central. I believe that sidewalks are needed regardless of who is responsible for Central Avenue. The people that walk along Central live in Oak Forest. They deserve to be safe. Additionally, I must say that I am in favor of raising the speed limit to 30 or 35mph. I drive Central everyday, several times a day. I can not tell you how many times someone has passed me using the center turn lane because I am doing 25mph. If people are going to drive like they are nuts, they will do it regardless of the posted speed limit. I see the fine officers of Oak Forest pulling over people exceeding the posted speed limit every day and have for 12 years. They do a great job, but as Chuck said, they can not be there 24/7. I'd love to see a speed camera along Central to clock and take pictures of those exceeding the limit. I can tell you from my experience that the high school kids, delivery trucks, school buses, yes school buses, Pace buses and many senior citizens are exceeding the limit everyday. There has to be a way to curb the lead foot.

To Mr. Toland and Mr. Simon, If there is anything I can do to help get sidewalks put on Central Ave. I would be more than willing to help, Just short of physical labor as my body can't do that. I am sure that I have stated this before but whether or not the speed limit changes, I firmly believe that we absolutely need the sidewalks on Central. I do agree that the increase in the speed limit would be unfair to the houses that are on Central do to the fact that it would be more dangerous for those people and their children or the children of their guests. So to Nancy I do agree with you that it would be a problem for you. I just think that too many people are in too much of a hurry to get someplace that will be there when they get there whether it is at 9:00 or 9:10. Life is too short to be hurrying everywhere. Slow down and enjoy the ride.

I don't have to use my last name, good enough? The topic of discussion along with personal feedback is what is important here, not searching people up who catch your attention. I would think that 35 would be too fast for in front of my home since the roadway is not laned out, the street is curved, and the width of the roadway is more constricted since cars park on my street. Cars don't park on Central, the roadway is not curvy, the lanes are marked, and by this reasoning the limit should be higher I feel. Maybe not as high as 45 but consistent with other similar roadways. It's not a matter of how I would feel about it in front of my home, we have to compare apples to apples. I feel for the people who can't pull out from their driveway but you knew the location of your driveway was on a main thoroughfare when you purchased the house and we all know that population is always expanding as time moves on. I made it important to look at traffic before I bought my house because at the time I knew I was going to have kids in the future. Buying on Central would not have been an option regardless of any speed limit. I agree with having available sidewalks and thank the other gentleman who is going to look into it. In retrospect, this happened in 75 which is some time ago. Have accidents been happining on Central since then that eceed average? Curious. Thanks Patch!

I do not want to see the speed limit on Central ave raised especially around the high school. I have left City Hall driving north on Central many times driving 25 or 26 mph and there are cars inches from my rear bumper. I have even been passed by a speeding lunatic a block north of the high school with a baseball game going and many kids around 25mph is fast enough.