How many times does this have to happen before you Gun Grabbers wake up and understand that the ONLY person ANY ban affects is THE BAD GUY. Shootings and violence DON'T TAKE PLACE WHERE THERE IS SOMEONE TO SHOOT BACK. Let's examine this for a moment. ALL of the mass shootings have taken place where? - GUN FREE ZONES. How many mass shootings have taken place where there ARE guns? Places such as Banks, Sporting Events, Taste of Chicago or any of those big downtown events? NONE! Why, because there are ARMED security / police there.

The problem with just relying on police is that there is a nationwide average of 8 min before police arrive. This is a result of geography and understaffing by our political regimes.
Life has common responses. Bullies are bullies because the people don't fight back or resist. Thugs, burglars and most basic criminals that would harm you are BULLIES. If you have the ability to fight back, they won't bother you. When they (bullies) don't know who is going to resist them, they can't attack. That is a basic law of nature.

States that allow their citizens to carry have very low personal attacks, home invasions, robberies. In one state we know DIRECTLY what happens as a result of carrying (with training of course) and not carrying. Colorado - Can carry...But has been attacked ONLY in places where they were not allowed.

Lipinski, like his dad before him, is a DINO-Democrat In Name Only.

I side with Dave here. The hard facts are this: millions of people own guns that are unregistered. A good number of them are criminals. The people that abide by the law have guns with serial numbers that correlate to them. So banning guns will only take those. Logic seems simple. If you don't want to own a gun you don't have to, however you should leave the law abiding people alone so they can choose to defend themselves from the people who own or aquire them illegally. Believe me stones, if you and I were in a crowd and somebody opened fire I wouldn't ask your position on guns before protecting you and the other innocent around you.

They take away our guns...than what? Maybe our freedom of speach or right to vote? If someone was in that school, theater or mall with a concealed weapons permit and acted on these crazy shooters I don't believe we would be hearing from these la la land residents calling for baning weapons. Heaven forbid anyone else has to be in these situations but if one is, you would be praying for exactly what you are complaining about now. There are thousands of assault rifles on store shelves and not one has ever jumped off the shelf and killed anyone, mentally ill people do.

I think one of the reasons that the congressmen don't mind taking away my guns is because they have armed guards that my taxes pay for. So I say, if I have to be disarmed, they need to give up their guards.
After all, why would they need armed guards if we don't have the right to have guns.

So what you are saying is that somebody with a gun could have stopped Loughner?
How can you have it both ways?
Chicago has had the strictest gun controls in the nation for years. What has that done to prevent gun violence?
There are already (by some counts) over 20,000 laws on guns now. What makes you think more laws will help?
If you think that the people that commit crimes with guns will be deterred because of more gun laws, I got a bridge you may wish to buy.

So you have nothing left but a weak attempt at an insult? I was hoping for more, but, as you are like most that blame the gun and not the person, I guess that's the best that you can do.
I could respond with the same, but instead, I challenge you to open your mind and watch this video from former congresswoman Suzanna Gratia Hupp. She can speak from experience as she was involved in a massacre and lost both of her parents to a psycho in a shootout.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9xUCI3nJsQ

That doesn't work either. If you watched the news, you would know that the guy that attacked the firemen in NY got his guns from is neighbor as he was a convicted felon and could not purchase them on his own.
His neighbor is now looking at ten years in jail. No laws could have stopped him as he and his neighbor ignored them.
Did you watch the video? I'll bet not.

So I write this as an independent neither the right or left has the whole answer to this problem . Never had it to this point .. I own firearms for sport and home defense along with hunting I agree with the right on these issues.. However, I do believe both sides have valid points . I agree with the left that I have no need for military grade weapons never had it never will . I speak for myself , but I see no need for it because I'm not trained to use it or have a practical application for it. Neither do the murderers that wield them. In this horrific events. Would GE sell a radiology machine to someone who was not trained to use it ? And would you trust your life in thief hands if they did sell it to this individual.? I can make analogies all day . But sales of these weapons need to be banned step 1.

Cont .Step 2 the background check system is a joke we spend more money on federal agents shutting down small organic farmers growing vegetables and providing raw milk . Really? Lets redirect our resources to doing better back ground checks this system needs much improvement .

Cont..Step 3 anger and mental illness are always the catalyst in these events. We need to look at funding this a little better and actually doing the work to make it more effective money alone won't solve it .

Step 4 NRA these guys are off the reservation . Nothing more than lobbyist for the gun manufacturers . Shut up and put your money were your mouth is and fund some of these community hospitals that deal with mental illness . I read all the time how these institutions are luxury resorts and shut down because if lack of funding . Really have you ever taken a walk through one of these places ? lets all agree that we need to look closer at this .

step 5 We need to have clarity here illegal guns are propagating from a source . That source is unknown but we need to break it down as to where they are being sold and manufactured . They didn't appear out of thin air and they don't have legs .
We all Agee that there is a problem.
Now lets all be free Americans and free ourselves from the tyranny of violence .

Gun control is nothing more than a political hot topic. If it was truly about saving lives, the politicians would make smoking illegal. Smoking causes 443,000 deaths a year. That is roughly 40 times more than gun related deaths.
If it is truly about saving lives, the politicians would ban alcohol because alcohol causes about 75,000 deaths a year. That is roughly 7.5 times more than gun related deaths. Oh yeah, we tried banning alcohol, that worked real well, didn't it?
I believe that it is all about trying to take away the rights that we have in this country.
We have been losing our freedoms a little at a time and if we keep letting the government do this then soon the rights that we all enjoy now, will not be there for the future generations.
I can already hear the anti-gun people saying their usual...you don't need those high capacity magazines, you don't need those so called assault rifles and so on.
I'll have you know that with spare clips and speed loaders, magazine capacity is not the issue. I can shoot my revolver (6 rounds) and with my speed loader, I can re-load and fire 6 more in about 2 seconds. I can fire 9 shots from my semi-automatic pistol and drop the empty clip and insert a new one in about 1 second.
That being said, I do agree that there should be better background checks and more spent on mental health but as I have said before, when the politicians give up their guards, I will give up my guns.

Tired I have speed loaders too , this doesn't change the fact that morons that buy ARs have the same access as the responsibile gun owners . I agree with your other statements but drums and 30 round clips along with military grade weapons need to Banned . I see guys at the range all the time that can't even load their own clips let alone hit a target . Limiting the clips keeps the morons from having the ability to inflict massive damage on the populace . Surely you can agree that thier are morons with guns that get them legally.Im willing to compromise so that we can get some reform so that we are all afforded our second amendment right .As a responsible fire arm owner.If a Miltia comes to your house am Ar will do very little for you . No militias are coming to your house a revolver with a speed loader will get it down
Or a 9mm/40 cal/45 any brand with 15-17 round clip .it only takes 1-2 rounds placed right to stop a bad guy if you can hit the target.

In addition , lets stay on topic here . I agree probation was a disaster do us the war on drugs modern day prohibition. But different subject .We need compromise and get away from conspiracy theories . Lets do what the founding fathers envisioned adjust for the times . Read letters from Thomas Jefferson to Madison . Also read letters between Adams and Jefferson and you will see what the architects intended. If you did, I apologize but read them again it will move you and you will feel the way I do . It will move you because you are an American like me Brother.

I believe that I am doing what the founding fathers envisioned, adjusted for the times. The 2nd amendment was not written for hunters, it was written so that the people could protect themselves from tyranny.
You mentioned 15-17 round clips, those would be considered high capacity and outlawed as well.
This is a fight to keep your rights. The government wants to rule everything. Look at what you have given up already. The TSA decides who can travel by air and what you can carry on a plane. The police set up roadblocks for safety inspections, even though the Supreme Court said this was unconstitutional but allowed it for "safety".
Try all this at once and people will notice, but try it a little at a time and we all will be living in a society where the government can and will control every aspect of your life.

This has nothing to do with a militia. It has everything to do with that second part of the 2nd amendment that you seem to miss every time, you know, the part that says I have the right to bear arms.
I understand that you don't like guns and would rather let somebody else take care of you, but I and many others, would rather take care of ourselves.
I'll bet you never took the time to watch the video of former congresswoman Suzanna Gratia Hupp, somebody that has first hand knowledge of what the price of gun control can be.
Ever hear of the Pearl River, MS school shooting? Probably not. Do you know why? It is because a "man who never grew up and wanted to continue playing soldier" got his gun and stopped a 16 year old satanist from his intended killing spree.

You still fail to give a practical application for an AR tired. Also you never answered the question would you trust your life with a with no training to any person for your healthcare needs? Furthermore , I like guns I have them so do you it's obvious . But what I don't hear are real solutions just more of the same I hear from both sides.15-17 clips are not the clips in question . Ok for arguments sake no ban, if folks want ARs they should be required to get insurance on it. Anybody in society that has the ability to take that many lives are required to take training courses and buy insurance. Even the common citizen that has a drivers license . Is being required to have a drivers license a attack on your constitutional rights now ? Now I came up with a solution for folks who want ARs with drums or 30 round clips. Lets not dwell on this issue alone we have mental illness issues and background check issues to contend with . This only one small piece of it lets not stop concentrating on it .your Miltia rant is ridiculous and I'm not even going to elaborate further . Compromise is not a dirty word for crying out loud.Stop insulting my intelligence already and instead replace with tangible ideas that we can all use here.Have you ever heard about the assault on ruby ridge?In the end it was bad choices,bad actors and bad info that led to the loss of life there ?.In the end it was the lack of communication that created an environment of violence that could of been avoided .

Cont.In the case of pearl hs incident we have yet another person with mental illness . So because this kid said he wasn't insane and used a .45 to kill people and stabbed his mother qualifies it as discussion point on large clips ?it does not pertain to other cases where they were used. Are you now saying we Ban knives and .45's ? It's like saying all 500 murders in Chicago were all done by illegal and legal handguns alike so let's ban all handguns now too . If you read my earlier suggestions I talked about tackling the mental illness as well .I do remember pearl HS just because the media doesn't choose to talk about it . The media also fails to point out that the Gabby Giffords shooter had only handguns and not an AR However. I think we can all agree that dude was insane as well.

The current ban introduced is unreasonable and wont pass. People say compromise? Then why wont the anti gun people just do it? Ok ban the manufacture of the guns and mags, but a forced registration will only cause millions of illegal gun, and they will be lost and untraceable. Same goes for the existing hi capacity magazines, more bad then good will come from this. A similar granfathering must be done to the 94 ban, not a ban that will cause a man to become a mad man. These guns have to be turned in on their own if the owner wants to. If the new ban rids us of only the manufacturing of the said guns, everything else will fall in place. The values will become so high, that transfer will be rare and the ones their are will be cherished and kept locked up tight. It worked very well for real machine guns that only 1 crime has been committed with a NFA registered Machine gun. Register as Nfa and let economics play its role. It works. This is the only real proven method to curb these guns. Make a registry for nfa, give a three month amnesty to register free of charge like they did in the 60's, and let it work. Dont cause more problems from this everyone, as most seem to want.

When I can be guaranteed that there are not tens of thousands of criminals out there with weapons I will gladly turn all of my guns in.

B Guillitte some tangible ideas , I like what I hear . But if this forum is for the elected officials on where they stand . Then they should hear us as citizens rebulucons and demacants alike . They should be holding town halls , leave your guns at the door please ;) . But these are the ideas that should put on referendums . Let the citizens choose ,trust me if their is anything the American people are good at is letting you know what they feel at the poles.

Mary comeon now what the heck do you need an AR for really ?Why can no one tell me what they would specifically use an AR for and in what situation ? Seriously , would you bring it to the market? Whoops I'm sorry I hit your cart and my AR went off in your face. Again no one is asking you to give up your guns . I'm not givin my Glock up sorry nor happing ,no one is asking you either . Just asking folks to come to the middle and find compromise . But again our elected dead beats need to get in front if this.Jjust like they line themselves up for lobbyist jobs when they get out of office.They have no problem with getting in front of that and taking super pact money for their campaign battle chest .You ask anyone and they will say that's the problem everything else gets lost in a haze of BS .

Progress you say nobody wants to come take your glock. Well if you read the headlines about what the crook Cullerton and the likes of him and the Quinn crowd are going to try to do during the lame duck session you might just change your tune and wake up and realize the the politicians and the government does not care a bit about the law abiding citizens because they have no control over the criminals that the 20,000 some gun laws have absolutely no adverse effect on.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/01/robert-farago/breaking-illinois-bill-to-ban-all-modern-firearms/

The truth is every post on the subject has merit anyone within 50 miles of the killing fields Chgo - Lawn or Englewood would be crazy not to be protected, look at Donnie Trotter a ANTI GUN advocate security guard with a 25 cal in his bag boarding a 737?
Remember Ken Ito he gave a bad name to the hitters using this as their preferred weapon, did not deter Donnie in his job! He will likely cosponsor a anti bill in the next session.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15

Progress, You seem to be stuck on the issue of large capacity clips and "what the heck do you need an AR for really ?"
I will give you some other examples of thing that you don't need:

1. Cars that can go 200mph. Does anybody other than a race car driver NEED a car that can go that fast? Should we ban them as well because way more people die in automobile accidents then are killed by guns every year and a great number of those accidents happen due to excessive speed?
2. Cigarettes. Nobody NEEDS to smoke and smoking causes way more deaths than guns every year.
3. Alcohol. Nobody NEEDS to drink alcohol and drinking causes way more deaths than guns.
These are just 3 examples of things that people don't NEED but can be legally purchased and used in the U.S. When law-abiding people use these products, nobody cares, why the big deal about guns?
I have asked this question before and nobody could answer it, how about you?
What if a guy who was drunk from drinking Budweiser, hit a bus full of kids and killed 20 of them?
Do you think that stores would pull all the beer off their shelves?
Would the President go on TV and say he would use all of his power to make sure that nothing like this ever happened again?
Would people be calling for the ban of Budweiser, or saying that you can't buy a case of beer, only 6-packs?

I read about that knucklehead Cullerton this morning really not concerned about him .If we have the most gun laws on the books now more will be even less effective .
We require practical solutions not more complex ones that aren't even enforceable .I know plenty of state,county and city cops that seriously aren't gonna waste their time going after law abiding citizens. I know this because I've heard them say it time and time again .

Cont.BS you mentioned Budweiser twice which means you Probably have poor taste in beer .I brew beer so , needless to say I have higher standards. All kidding aside .Let me ask you this nuclear bombs are weapons .Should we let everyone have one ? Should we ? Our nation contains these weapons so crazy radicals don't get them . Scenario,If your AR15 or just a handgun was out on the bed and say you had a crazy cousin is over . Who's prone to attacking folks at the drop of a hat .Would you put it away or let your cousin get his or hands on it? I'm calling for all of us to use common sense here , we need to contain legal access to the mentally Ill and access to illegal weapons as well . I'm not stuck on high cap clips BS I'm trying to get you to find the common ground here

Cont.Michael M I, don't need a link to tell me about ARs dude . Thanks for being the enlighten one on guns LOL. . Your gun IQ is so impressive now tell me more cause I never heard of this thing called the Internet . You act as if I'm picking on one gun. If I feel the need to shot an AR I will and I have already have many times . All I'm saying is we need to keep them out of the wrong hands . If some nut job can go just get one illegally why do we need to make Easy for them to get one legally ? Go back earlier to what I was saying about how are they getting these guns. I really don't need an education on guns I have them .On the NRA comment, I'm with Stones on this one if they are going to take money from the gun manufactures come up with some better ideas. Not the same crap that's been rehashed from 30 years ago .then spend the money sensibly not on just selling more guns cause it's good for business .believe it or not those funds could benefit us all if applied to things like mental illness clinics . No one can contain all the guns from getting into the wrong hands but we at least need to try.

Progress, gun control laws are not the answer. If they were, Chicago would be the safest place to live on the planet. After all, all guns were illegal in Chicago for more than 28 years. How did that work?
The gun laws in Connecticut are and have been some of the strictest laws in the country. When the U.S. stopped the "assault weapon ban", Connecticut did not.
There are somewhere around 20,000 laws on the books already. How will more laws help?
I see that you can make jokes about my earlier question involving Budweiser and a drunk driver hitting a bus and killing 20 or more. I also noticed that you did not answer that question. Why is that? It's the same thing, a bunch of kids get killed because somebody uses a legal product in an irresponsible way.
What you and all the others don't seem to realize is that it is not about gun control, it is about control, period. After they take this right away, what is next?
When taking your rights away, they won't do it all at once, but, a little at a time. Did you know that "assault weapons" are responsible for only about 2% of the deaths caused by guns? Which type will be next? When they want your Glock, because they can kill people too, will you look for common ground then?
It is not about gun control. It is about government trying to control your life.
You did ask what an AR is good for and I will tell you, they are a load of fun to shoot and they are useful for protection and you can hunt with them.

Bs my nuclear bomb question was not ridiculous . But I respect you answered it just the same .Last time I checked its a free country and and I can make analogies also, it comes along with that freedom of speech thing. Your right if someone has the means they will get a nuclear weapon are you suggesting that in history we have never done nothing to stop it ?Wait that's right no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq wrong discussion "my bad".But we continue to try to keep it out of the hands of domestic and threats abroad do we not?
Yes to your question, I would find common ground if they took my guns ,with you and other Americans . If the founding fathers didn't ,we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. I still believe we are nation for the people by the people.

To your bus question yes they used a legal product ,but they still committed a illegal act . Driving drunk can get you time served and a loss of your driving privileges . Also ,there comes the issue of bars not being able to over serve you because they can get sued.But those just silly old laws who needs those right?

Now we are going compare things that can kill folks . To stones point they are designed for one purpose and one purpose only to kill. So are nuclear weapons designed to kill .Im an engineer by trade so pretty familiar with what things are designed for.If someone breaks into my home threatens my family that's what I intend to do, if wounding them does not suffice. However , range shooting is a ton of fun and they can be used in a sporting application . Don't mean to call you a bad marksman i don't know you ,but if you need an A R to hunt ,please don't hunt by me please :) I have kids to feed.

Responsible gun owners would lock up their weapons of course.I knew you would answer that you sound like a good dude. But I'm just not as paranoid I guess ,that's obvious . If you knew me personally you would say why aren't you ? Because its not constructive use of my time is why. Like stones ,I've been attacked and a victim of a violent crime never shot . But if having a gun put to your face qualifies as a wake up call so be it . I guess I just look at violence in some of the same respect Stones does.It needs to be avoided at all cost and the very last resort to protect the innocent.I thought stones said it best when he responded to your ridiculous rant earlier .I Didn't feel the need for redundancy there. If you hunt with an AR then your not hunting in Illinois it is illegal to have more than 3 in the chamber . So be careful don't get caught I've seen them take guys trucks away because they didn't have the plug in the gun .

Cont. I'm sure you know all this already so moving on..So You want to hear my two cents? here it goes...
You are so right ARs are fun to shot at the range as a sport and its really ok if it stays there .Renting guns is cheap ,fun and you don't have to take them home and clean them. A smith and Wesson 15-22 is fun and you can shoot cheap for awhile.It wouldn't matter if the statistic of someone getting nailed by an AR was less than 1% .To me ,If any of my children have a chance of being even in the slightest of that percentile .Than I have a damn right to voice my opinion and expect action . I hate second hand smoke too, yes for the love of god it kills more people than guns . So don't smoke next to me if I'm standing in a spot before you arrive . I'm going to have issues with blowing your cancer stick in my face.

If I need to be part of the solution ,so be it .I can't stop people from getting in a car drunk and killing folks. No one can ,but what I can do in a democracy is study judges records on how they rule on these case and uphold the laws on the books. I can also choose to be a responsible citizen and not get behind the wheel of a car loaded as well . I never said we needed more laws I said we need better management of the ones on the books . The ones on the books can be adjusted .Worrying about them taking my glock really . I'm sorry I can't live my life worrying about the government taking my guns. If they do ill write you back and let you know it happened and you were right. But I'm a free American ,I'm free not to worry ,you are free to worry .I have faith that no one will arrest you for it unless your being a moron.Like I said you sound like a good dude and we are saying a lot of the same things here.But BS we can agree to disagree as well .

So You answered you would lock up your guns from your crazy cousin .BS if you we're given the power to keep guns out of the hands of other mentally ILL folks not related to you?How would it be structured ?How would you do it ,I'm curious . Actually ,I ask this question to the forum here ,how would any of you stop ,curb or detract the mentally from obtaining a gun ? I've put my ideas on the table lets hear yours .

I know that this discussion will take on even more sombre tones when the all volunteer Army comes home from defending the HELLIBURTON EMPIRE they will bring a lot of real baggage and highly skilled uses and techniques of weapons and.a dismal job outlook, remember the Pentagon to fill the ranks lowered the basic individual test scores to a lower category for the 2 thereat war and for the other deployments all over Africa and Asia defending the empire.
One of the major reasons we invaded the HINDU KUSH had to do with Cheneys energy summit and the pipe line from the Stans which never materialized does anyone care that it had nothing to do with Ben Laden and 911 WELL not entirely !
Now after the wars end and we are in a new austerity and recessionary period of MANUFACTURED do nothingism we will be re closing even more mental facilities in Illinois putting all or most manic psychotics in nursing homes along with bangers and seniors with Demetia because there is no where else for them to go ,the Dem are as much to blame as the TPrty here and in DC .
The Va is in shambles despite the attention it has gotten from the administration these scum lpbby kissing traitors and unindicted criminals in congress can't help Hurricane victims or hospitalized vet's and it is going to be a lot worse when the multiple deployment volunteers come home, this govt had better start planning and thinking outside the box quick it could get a lot messier.

Butch I dislike the Cheneys of the world as well but no love for either for the dems.My political view ,really does not matter here. I'm asking for how someone would structure framework to curb violence.I respect your views but really ,Im serious here I want fix broken things its my nature.I don't have all the answers here ,none of us do .Everyone that had something to say here ,I want to thank .I will check back in a couple days to see if there was any progress in thought .Think we all know the statistics here let's move past this it's a moot point.Its ok that no one has an easy solution ,it's not an easy topic.Im willing to continue talking about it but only to help develop framework for a real solution .What I don't want to do is simply regurgitate from the same media hype over and over again .Im not a politician here nor am i promoting any ,I'm an engineer I actually put real solutions in place that people benefit from . Thanks for all the responses again good conversation .

Progress, while you seem to think that there is no way that the government bans would affect you or your Glock, I suggest that you read what Senator Dianne Feinstein proposes as a gun control bill that President Obama has already said he supports.
http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/files/serve/?File_id=10993387-5d4d-4680-a872-ac8ca4359119

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future."
A very famous man said this when he achieved one of his goals, gun registration for all in his country. Then he sent people to take all the guns that had been registered so he would be able to more fully control all aspects of every persons life in his country without fear of the people having a way to defend themselves.
I can already picture our President saying something very similar to this in one of his many speeches. I can hear the crowds cheering just as they cheered the man who said these words the first time.
It sends chills down my spine that this may actually happen in America, for you see, the person that said these words was Adolf Hitler.

Civilized nation more like JUAREZ where the cartels have the right to spray theaters and schools with AR and HOLLOW POINT ammo, or in Crook Cnty The State Atty refuses to send to trial or to a mental facilty a failed murdering arsonist career criminal mental patient because they have no room-in their facilities to treat him due to the overwhelming number of pot heads and hemp smokers and the nursing homes were already full of Latin and other Maniac disciples ( was Vera there) and so the prosecutors send him home to finish the job!
It put a special emphasis on what Progress in his articulate rebuttal does not say on the subject of mental illness !
Guns, gasoline and lighters can all be WMD in the wrong hands the Cook Cnty ST Atty gave a certifiable mental a pass to go home and try try again,we do not question her motives and in the next 24 months there will be a lot of PTSD and victims of IED with a long wait for care at the VA! Maybe it won't be on this politically correct thread but any discussion on guns , ammo clips will include every good and bad aspect and treatment of mental illness or god help us.

You People forget the whole reason we have the second ammendment! Its not to protect the rights of hunters or sportsmen. Its to protect yourself against your government if it were to ever become a tryanny. It is your American duty to remove any government that is infringing on The American People and its Constitution and liberty. You people are such pussy's you would just shit your pants and run! go try to remove a tryanny with a hand gun. Good fukin luck Jerk offs!

now this historian is a saner version of what I am talking about!
One of the most articulate constitutional scholars to contribute since VERA'S 12 personality

I think JJ is a MICH MILITIA warrior who took to the woods and trained to fight the invasion or RED DAWN whatever he would be a hit in a Somalia militia and actually use his RPG or AK against the Army.

Indians use to kill people, dentists kill people with mercury, JJ and the Mich militia wish they could kill people,teachers will soon be able to kill people, the TPARTY will keep trying to wage war on women who they say kill people but it will be stealthy, altar boys will soon be killing people if the likes of Card George -Dolan can keep getting away with their PR and misinfo, Ted Haggard's victims ditto also kill people,A lot of people not on their med's kill people the results are the same and for the same reason we cannot afford to slow it down for fear morons like JJ will call us wussy's or something if we did,
WE cannot now because we have Wars for Terror-drugs-Zionists to fight for the Empire and defend the Cayman islands Condo where 15,000 corp live as people who are the biggest killers they are Big Pharm, Insurance, Chem and Bain, We also need to quit writing checks to EXXON and BUSH-CHENEY PIONEERS -RANGERS and raise the TPARTY'S taxes.if we cut the useless spending and wars we will have solutions to guns and people no matter how many JJ, Vera's or OXY users are making threats and stupid talk which is better the further South u go, could JJ be Vera?

So I waited a few days as promised ,to write back in because it was important to me to hear what others had to say and contribute to this topic.I want to start out by saying thank you to truth and especially Stones for being to voice of reason here. I don't want to rehash the NRA folklore here ,but that is exactly what it is folklore . What I do want to say is whether your left or right of the issue , don't let the those that have the ability to market fear win .To me that is the tyranny of what the constitution solely strives to defend us all from. Physically arming yourself is not the only message we need to take from this doctrine. We all need to realize that it empowers other liberties as well ,so we can not just arm ourselves physically ,spiritually and mentally as well . To me that is the way I understand it and why it's written so we have these checks and balances.

I do want to respond to a few things here that we're called out. First it's the paranoia ,the paranoia of the folklore earlier mentioned. I've said in this forum that we have heard this all before , I think we can all quote statistics all day at least I know I can but its truly not an answer to solutions here.But I heard this before ,this paranoia rant from guys like the Unabomber ,Timothy Mc Veigh and the list goes on and on. All worried about our system of government collapsing on them . But instead of being part of the solution they validated their paranoia by killing innocents .So I asked myself when these were the topics in the mainstream media then .If these guys hated the system so much why didn't they leave the country ? Then it occurred to me that no other country has a system in place that let's those like myself and those on this forum express themselves freely and openly without fear of prosecution or death as a penalty for it. They may have a system now in place that they has a system of democracy that mirrors our own .

It may have in fact even been loosely based on our system of government . Hence the the French Revolution that replaced a monarchy . Parliaments that have also replaced things like dictatorships and so forth. The world is watching what we will do next ,because we have set and example .The world watching us ,also has countries in which citizens don't kill one another like we do either. Some not all ,so don't get hung up on this one thing and start quoting statistics I have access to them as we'll.

Our country is isn't perfect either and those countries have also adopted some of our bad habits as well .Lets not lead them down the wrong path . We owe it to ourselves , we owe it to the world.I love my country like you all do ,this is why I stay in it because I don't fear it ...

BS so foid cards you are so right .Thank you for pointing it out it was a compromise ,was (past tense ). Don't really think that if I wiped my behind after taking a dump ten minutes ago would suffice if The last time wiped it was in fact 6 weeks ago . Sorry for the graphic description ,but you get the point. Foid cards are not the end all say all ,but its a start .I'm not trying to blast you here ,however you said you've adjusted for the times when it comes to the constitution and your second amendment .Have you really ? Because I hear you saying the same thing over and over in different ways . I know people that say some of the same things you are saying as well . I usually need to talk them off a ledge though, so I can sit them down and have a beer with them."It is ,what it is", I accept folks with different views from my own ..

Cont.BS ,I posed you with a question as to how you would structure legislation or even curb ,detract and work to stop the mentally Ill from obtaining guns .Because it would mean more to me at least on how you would build up society instead of complaining about on how it's all wrong. Do you even care about society because you sound to me like you would like to tear it down and leave chaos in it's wake. You continued to say things like you don't realize or you don't get it . Ok ,your opinion not mine ,we can agree to disagree. In the sprit of good will ,Ill give you a second chance to tell me how you would do this one thing . To keep the guns way from the mentally ill that is. I will write back in a few days and give you my version in 5 steps ,on how I would structure this framework. I said early on here we need multi faceted solutions for a multifaceted issue . I answered all your questions ,now answer mine. Show me and the others you have the courage to be part of the solution and not the problem.

Cont.JJ do me and everyone a favor here ,don't say anything unless you have something useful to say .Obscenities and name calling is not constructive here .If you want rant that non-sense on Facebook or twitter etc... go ahead . But you won't find me there to listen to it. Furthermore, I won't tolerate or listen to you here. That's the last I will respond to your non-sense ,until you have something useful to contribute.

It's not an attack from our government , to me it seems like incompetence and greed at its best at the end of the day .Mostly from folks that we elect that need shorter term limits and we don't need to keep filling these seats with the same special interest groups who have made their investment . An investment you or I Cannot afford but are funded by those who have it in their coffers.To me that's the bigger issue . I want guns out if the hands of the mentally ILL. Im Willing to do that if it only results in just one person with mental illness not having one.I believe that one person has the ability to create as much good as bad.The alcholism issue is an epidemic one in which we have in our communities and close to home . I can only cross one bridge at a time , Im crossing this one right now . Take a ride with me , there is a seat in the cab for you.

"Peace cannot be kept by force ,it can only be kept by understanding."

Albert Einstein
Father of the nuclear bomb

Oh yeah and Tired ,I'll even let you drive just as long as you don't drive us into the ditch. deal?;)

Well guys, this has been an interesting debate. Whatever happens is out of our control and in the hands of the politicians and that, should scare the hell out of all of us.

Agreed stones

Tired as promised ,What we can do to take to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill.

A national plan that will take recommendations from a presidentially appointed committee panel.

- I agree with the NRA on where there needs to be a national database system that alarms law enforcement .So that it flags for these types of scenarios .The question is how does it work?

First I think it would require a panel with representing advocates from diverse range of interest groups. The panel should have 7 members for starters, this could increase. I know ,another committee another panel but action needs to start with dialogue and a real understanding of the problem .Our president needs to confront this the right way .Some of these things may even be happening already but I can guarantee they are not doing all of what I'm suggesting here.And if they are then maybe ,I'm on something.

The NRA would send one of their high ranking officials hopefully its not Wayne . I'm sorry, I just don't like this guy but they can send him if he's the only spokesperson they got. I wasn't a big Heston fan either ,but he makes that guy look like the guy your trying to kick out of the bar at the end of the night .You with me stones ? I did a little bar tending stint myself ,so you know what I'm talking about.Some of the wisest people I've met in life were bartenders. They know their customers better than shrinks do. They can send that Isa guy that use to be a senator, I'm cool with that too .

Anyways ,back on track here.
They need to be involved because they have some lobbyist cash sitting in bank accounts that can pay for it, you better believe it.Shame on the them for bringing it up ,but then asking the American tax payers to flip the bill . Call your local congressman, that's their solution . Really these guys cant even agree on where to pave a road ,let alone pay for it.Really?This is only going to require those of the private sector to do their part to help as well. Grover Norquist sits on the board surely he can find out where the cash is hiding.

The second group representing would be Anti- violence advocacy group one that has core members are survivors of a violent crime in which they lost a loved one .This group can be debated on as to who's been most impacted by violence with a gun in the hands of the mentally ill.What else do I need to say ?I don't think we will have a hard time finding takers here. Who best to give their side than those who know the loss of such a tragedy first hand.

The third would be Ranking Police official from any of the the major cities with high crime rates.Joe Biden went and talked to some of these law enforcement groups after the Connecticut shootings . Mainly to get an insight on how to deal with this.Anyways my point here is that's the type of input we need on this panel.We Need to work with the law here and not violate the rights of the citizen.

The forth group will be some one from the mental health care organization.
What we need to also take into consideration is Hepa regulations to protect patients rights and may violate folks right to privacy . So we will need to be carful as to who society deems a threat . This will be a very sticky area to tackle , but we need to have an adult conversation here about how to keep society safe from this human condition .Hitler would simply euthanize folks with this condition ,that's not the society we live in . We are better we are Americans ,believe in that

Just to be clear we will need someone that understands the human mind and the thought patterns of those that commit these horrific acts of terror.There are different degrees of crazy trust me . You should met my mother in law.Shes crazy ,but no violent tendencies ,is the point I'm making here . I believe healing is required here if we really want to eliminate a threat behind a firearm . I always hear it's just gun it the person that shots it and that caused it to be dangerous. Ok I agree ,now lets help that person so they don't harm themselves or others.

The fifth would the the VA hospitals .I've actually worked with some of these folks in my work life .I can tell you that would have a lot to bring to the table here. They really care about the vets .Historically they may not always acted in their best interest due to funding. But I can tell you that the staff members at these Hospitals and clinics are good folks.We need to future proof our systems ability to take an onslaught of returning vets . We are already seeing record numbers back from both wars with Post Traumatic conditions.
Our men and women that have served have done their country proud. However ,we can't ignore the mental issues here .

I know several wind up committing suicide or having breakdowns that cause violent outcomes. Some are on the streets and are homeless with this condition . Make no mistake what that soldier did in the village of Afghanistan To innocent civilians, children even.That could of easily happened on our soil . Actually now that I mentioned it It has the fort hood incident . I know this guy was a a radical but come on this guy was counselor ,what he did was crazy too .

I even have a family member who tried to end their life ,no one else was physically harmed. But the condition had to be confronted just the same before it's too late .Many more families will be impacted when more of our nations brave soldiers come home ,I'm just saying lets be there for them like they were their for us.They need to be at the table there should be an interaction with local authorities if anything for their safety and that of the community that may be impacted.

The sixth member would be a technology company or committee like the IEEE ,remember this is a database.
.Network Security protocols will need to be established to protect folks medical info so info does not get into the hands of employers or those who may be biased in their hiring practices. Just because someone is mentally ill doesn't discount their right to work that should not be taken from them. We don't beat down the sick ,we build them up. We need to do our due diligence to build a secure and stable network that not only aids local law enforcement. But doesn't build prejudice against those that have a condition . This should not be about tracking people so parameters that make sense need to be set so no government agency has a tool to make citizens lives miserable. I actually have knowledge of this, I work in this field, and there is footprint for this . Look up "Calea".

The last member would actually be government ,well a retired member of gov.Say a ways and means committee that served in this capacity in a past congress.This may be tough because these guys gerrymander their districts and stay in power .They never leave,Hence why we need term limits.

When you make recommendations you need to make sure we know how we can pay for it. I personally believe the NRA should flip the bill . But the committee can make those recommendations .I think an ex politician that doesn't answer to say a Grover Norquist or a George Soros may actually have something useful to contribute.

I would also like to say increases in funding for gun buy back programs should be increased .The frequency in which they are held should be looked at it. Nothing keeps everyone happy like taking illegal guns off the streets . Lets all agree that one less illegal gun off the street is better than one more.I know they take legal guns too ,but that's the citizens choice to turn it in.i really think these work but they don't think we have enough of them.I would keep what's working now with these programs.

This is a first attempt at what I would do .But thats if this would ever get done (which it wont). I would like to see it as a referendum ,but again I'm sure it would have to go to congress "god forbid".I say that because a super pact would crush me with these views on how to fix this,its not in their best interest .Well in any case great debate . I'm signing off for good thanks all for a good dialogue.

Progress, a lot of this makes sense in theory, but I'm not sure it does in a practical sense because with such a diverse group, you may have the same debate we have had here. But it's certainly a start.

The one issue it doesn't address is people, especially the mentally ill that have been responsible for these mass shootings getting their hands on weapons that were otherwise legally purchased by responsible gun owners. They have been stolen by family members, neighbors or whatever. I don't know there is any practical way to prevent that,

Progress,
I just want to make sure that I have it straight.
You want the same people that gave, and lost track of, fully automatic weapons to the Mexican drug cartels to be the ones that are responsible for tracking guns in America?
Sounds like a wonderful plan.

LOL um no , let's have coffee some time.,Take care.

I agree stones , how can you prevent it its a family member that gets their hands on it. This same question Its the same asking as well . But I think a discussion can be had on it.I know someone in this scenario they had to get rid of their legally owned firearms.Because of a bi-polar son. The son now in his thirties now was able to go across state lines and get more legally and bring them back . In which case my friend had get the law involved and have them removed from his home when he stumbled across them.

BS,
In a court a gun is always a deadly weapon and only gun advocates refuse to accept that premise in all their arguements. A gun was only made for killing - period. Hunting and target shooting came later. In some situations a gun can be transformed into a sporting or recreational item as a secondary use, but not these rapid fire killing machines used in many situations lately.
A bat is a recreational item and a car is a transportational item, but like every known physical object they can all be used a weapon, even a feather. So lets not have a mindless comparison of guns to cars and bat, it weakens any chance the Left won't demand the enforcement of the 2nd amendment to its militia use only. I'm trying to stay right of Left, but listening to folks like you, I'm pulling my right oar from the water.

And if Mama Lamza knew her kid couldn't go to schools and had social issues she should have kept her guns locked up and not allowed him access. And no kids shouldn't be allowed gun use at all, but certainly without objective 3rd party training classes.

(Next)

Gun advocates need some history before they go all 2nd amendment. This is a pretty good synopsis http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/12/22.

FBI: MORE PEOPLE KILLED WITH... eye opening...
Really an eye opening bunch of statistics:

FBI: MORE PEOPLE KILLED WITH HAMMERS, CLUBS EACH YEAR THAN RIFLES

By AWR HAWKINS, Breitbart.com

According to the FBI annual crime statistics, the number of murders committed annually with hammers and clubs far outnumbers the number of murders committed with a rifle.

This is an interesting fact, particularly amid the Democrats' feverish push to ban many different rifles, ostensibly to keep us safe of course.

However, it appears the zeal of Sens. like Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) and Joe Manchin (D-WV) is misdirected. For in looking at the FBI numbers from 2005 to 2011, the number of murders by hammers and clubs consistently exceeds the number of murders committed with a rifle.

Think about it: In 2005, the number of murders committed with a rifle was 445, while the number of murders committed with hammers and clubs was 605. In 2006, the number of murders committed with a rifle was 438, while the number of murders committed with hammers and clubs was 618.
And so the list goes, with the actual numbers changing somewhat from year to year, yet the fact that more people are killed with blunt objects each year remains constant.

Just a little more on statistics...US is NOT the world leader in murders.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/...est_media.html

A history of school attacks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_primary_schools
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_secondary_schools
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_post-secondary_schools

I agree that locking and securing is the best method. But mental illness doesn't make someone dumb. In most cases these folks are extremely intelligent. In my buddies case , he is still pro-gun but no secruity mechanism would hold his son back from getting his hands on them . So he chose to do what he could get rid of them , not because he hated guns but what he knew what would happen. Even with that said he's son an adult now then purchased legally across state lines and brought them back . All I'm saying is yes he coul get them illegally which is a problem also. But getting them legally because he committed no crime that's the grey area in which I still struggle with and I think most do .